The Alchemy of Pain: From Heartbreak to Healing

Transcript generated by AI:

Music: 0:00

I will not be afraid of the shadows in the dark. They will lead the way to the hidden pathways of the heart and that secret place that is where I find my start.

Elizabeth Winkler: 0:17

Welcome to the Shadow and the Light podcast with internationally renowned meditation teacher, davidji.

davidji: 0:23

And heart healer and psychotherapist Elizabeth Winkler, as we guide you through our unique fusion of ancient wisdom and modern psychology.

Elizabeth Winkler: 0:33

Get ready to awaken your true essence.

davidji: 0:36

Heal your wounds and transform your shadow into in tune.

davidji: 1:04

Hi, davidji. Oh, hello there, Elizabeth. Oh, I’m so excited about this episode. I’ve been waiting to spring this one on you, Elizabeth. You are the alchemist, the celestial alchemist, and this episode is called the Alchemy of Pain, and perhaps how those deepest, darkest pains of heartbreak, betrayal and suffering refine us into compassion, power and purpose.

davidji: 1:36

I think everybody listening here has either felt the sting of betrayal or perhaps you have betrayed someone else at some point. Sometimes we have to honor our own soul and betray another to be true to ourself. But this concept of betrayal so powerful and I know that Elizabeth is such an expert in this area just because she has experienced in so many different ways through her tens of thousands of hours of helping clients heal their own betrayals, whether it’s been inflicted on them by somebody else or whether they have betrayed their own hearts or someone else I know I just sprung this one on you, but I know you have such wisdom to share regarding betrayal and how we can use that almost as a foundational element or the ground that we stand on to heal and level up our lives.

Elizabeth Winkler: 2:36

The first place I go to with this is very deep and inner. I see a lot of divorces in my practice, so there’s a lot of cheating.

davidji: 2:47

There’s more common betrayals and then there are more esoterical, the first place we go to is lying, deceiving.

Elizabeth Winkler: 2:53

It could be addiction, it could be cheating of any kind financial with other people. These sorts of things are the betrayals that we run to in our mind. However, the first place I go to is self betrayal, because ultimately, that is what we end up at if we go deep, deep, deep, deep into it. Now, that does not mean that other people do not need to take responsibility for betrayals that you’re encountering in your relationship. Of course, of course, of course, of course, and something that many of my clients look at, and I have myself in my own life, with the betrayals I have gone through, you got to look at what in me, energetically, how am I betraying myself and how do I lie to myself or how do I abandon myself. Now, the truth of the matter is we talk a lot about ego in this podcast, right, and the ego really is just a self betrayal. So everyone is betraying themselves ultimately, because when we go into our ego, we are not being true to ourself, we are not in alignment with our true being. So ultimately, that is true for everyone there is a sense of betrayal, which I don’t think is maybe where you were going with this, but that’s where my mind went when I was younger.

Elizabeth Winkler: 4:18

I very much sought my identity through perfectionism. That was a huge component to my persona and I wanted to excel and do really well in school and that was how I got my sense of self, my sense of worthiness. But underneath that well, it’s a deep sense of self-betrayal. I talk about that a lot with my clients because the perfectionist may look like they’re really doing well and they’re achieving so much and all of that. It’s like a perfect mask right. However, underneath it is total self hate, you know, and self loathing and criticism and it’s never good enough and you got to do more. And once you get to that finish line, you got to do it again or the goalpost keeps changing. And so this is where my mind goes when I think about betrayal, because I see it so often in my clients and I’ve walked through it myself.

davidji: 5:17

That’s where everything starts. I love the fact that you make this about this concept of inner betrayal, self-love, self-loathing, self-betrayal, self-trust all those different types of why’s this happen to the self? We ignore our inner knowing. We absolutely just ignore it. We stay in situations that diminish us, even though all the signs are telling us get out. Now the room’s on fire, get out. We’re like, oh, but maybe the flames will dissipate or maybe I’ll be able to handle it longer, or maybe they’ll change, maybe those flames will turn into rainbows.

davidji: 5:53

And one of those deepest betrayals is when your heart, when the essence inside of you, says no and you say yes to please someone, or your soul says yes and you say no to please someone, and the flip side of that can be perceived as betraying somebody else. Can you betray somebody else what they thought? Because betrayal is all about you and I have a trust, understanding or a contract, pretty much. You’re going to act like this and I’m going to act like this, you’ll behave like this, I’ll behave like this. The most obvious is in a relationship and we’re exclusive and then suddenly I find out that you’re not exclusive and you broke my heart.

davidji: 6:32

What are we really saying? We’re saying well, you broke my trust because you told me it was just us. And then you changed your mind, and I believe everyone gets to change their mind. Can we change our minds kindly? And so some people can catastrophize the betrayal if suddenly I say you know what? I think I’m attracted to somebody else and I wasn’t really attracted to them. Nothing’s happened yet, but I’m having feelings. And if I’m having feelings, I really can’t commit to you at this time.

Elizabeth Winkler: 7:03

I’m listening to you. That’s intense.

davidji: 7:06

Yeah, yeah, it’s really intense, but most of the time it’s so intense we can’t do that. So instead we begin the journey of lies and all this other stuff, and now we’re living two lives simultaneously, because you can’t really love two people simultaneously. One’s got to win out in this thing ultimately, and then to protect ourselves from that moment that you just felt right now this is intense. We’re just kicking the can down the road because ultimately it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then it’s like why do you have lipstick on your collar? Why do you smell of perfume? What’s this charge on your credit card? Whatever that is, whatever that whole thing looks like.

davidji: 7:46

Maybe you could speak just a little bit to this concept. There is a moment where we could say I think I’m feeling differently, but we don’t. It’s just too painful or too risky or too scary to just go there, because I don’t want to break your heart. And that’s why people stay in relationships. They’re hoping the other person will break up with them. They start acting totally like jerks, so the other person will say you them. They start acting totally like jerks, so the other person, the other person, will say you know, I need to break up with you.

Elizabeth Winkler: 8:16

You chew all the time with your mouth open. I think the question is what are you avoiding? You are walking into a very intense thing that’s hurtful too right To say that, very hurtful, but what’s the other option? To say that Very hurtful, but what’s the other option? Right, we’re avoiding these conversations, we’re avoiding pain, but we’re also the person would say well, I don’t want to say that to my partner because that’s going to create pain. So it doesn’t feel like you really have a choice. You always have a choice, but people can feel that they don’t have a choice and oh, no one will ever know It’ll. Oh, no one will ever know. You know it’ll happen and no one will ever know it’s. It’s fine, right, but you carry that with you.

Elizabeth Winkler: 8:58

I mean, the thing is, when that is going on, when there’s cheating going on in a relationship, there’s much deeper things going on. It’s not about that. There’s other stuff going on that isn’t being faced. So that’s just like a symptom to a deeper wound. You know, which is why I said I immediately go to self-betrayal, because that’s really what’s going on for for both people, and you know it’s not always easy for people to look at. But I’ve helped a lot of people, a lot of couples. Some people say, oh, someone cheated on me, I would never be able to continue. I’ve seen people be able to move beyond it. It’s not easy, but it is possible.

davidji: 9:41

Oh well, you have to want to.

Elizabeth Winkler: 9:43

Right.

davidji: 9:43

That’s number one.

Elizabeth Winkler: 9:44

You have to be willing to walk into a lot of very uncomfortable conversations and not be blaming each other. Obviously, there is responsibility. That is different than blame Taking responsibility for things and learning from it and growing and I have seen couples go through that and become much stronger and fall more in love than they were before. So it totally can be. As you said. You started by saying the alchemy of pain, so it can alchemize something that you all had in your relationship. Maybe you carried that in, maybe both of you carried that in from your generational trauma, whatever, I don’t know and you’re able to meet that and greet that in a new way and create something else, and you’re able to meet that and greet that in a new way and create something else.

davidji: 10:31

Yeah Well, we are all people pleasers. So that’s one easy reason I don’t want to deliver bad news. What’s the bad news? You know all the stuff we built together, all the stuff we created so that you would know who I was. And now you realize, as I reveal something to you, I’m not who you thought I was. And, oh my God, could there be a deeper pain, breaking the illusion that we’ve created? I’m loving, I’m monogamous, you’re all that matters to me.

Elizabeth Winkler: 11:01

You know we complete each other, you’re my soulmate, like all that kind of stuff. Suddenly it’s like all that gets shattered. I don’t want to have that conversation. I don’t want to feel that way. I don’t want to be the bad guy. So many relationships are in this space.

Elizabeth Winkler: 11:22

People-pleasing is self-betrayal, though that seems obvious. But when we people-please, we’re not being authentic with ourselves or each other. And so how can you have a deep relationship, a really deep, true, authentic relationship, if you’re doing that? Some people don’t know how not to do that. That’s okay, totally. People, please, are over here.

Elizabeth Winkler: 11:39

I lived that way when I was younger and it didn’t feel good to me. So we’ve got to look at what is driving that. What is it that you really want? You want to connect. That’s why people do that, and so we have to look at the deeper desire within the heart. And also, what have you abandoned within yourself? When you’re in betrayal, you’re abandoning some part of yourself, and this also speaks to worthiness, and what do I deserve? And all of that, which all has to do with pain of the past that you’re not allowing yourself to heal. So, ultimately, if there is betrayal in your relationship, or there has been betrayal, it’s like a tipping point that is allowing you to step into something that is desiring to be healed, so that you can transform and become something bigger. I always say the wound is the way, and so what if we saw these, in a sense, tragic, painful experiences as huge opportunities, because they are.

davidji: 12:42

Oh, these are quantum leap opportunities.

Elizabeth Winkler: 12:45

If you walk into.

davidji: 12:46

If you’re willing to. But we’re more tender than we think we are and the people in our life are also very, very tender. So we walk on eggshells around certain truths that are bubbling up inside of us and ultimately that leads to rationalization. It’s like, oh, I’m not really in love with this person, this other person that I’m having the affair with or that I’m stepping out with. I don’t love them. I didn’t have a child with them. It’s you who I care about.

davidji: 13:14

Going back to this fear of shattering the illusion, there’s also this concept that I’m afraid if I just put something out there, whatever it is, it will change the fabric of the universe forever and it’s irreversible. Because I want you to see me in a certain light. I can’t take that back. If you claim you’re one thing and then someone sees you not that thing, you have to decide. Well, do I admit, oh, the vegan who’s eating the hamburger. Do you say, I guess I’m not a vegan, I’m an omnivore, is what that is? Or do you say, oh, that’s just a one-time thing. I thought it was a, I thought it was a beyond burger, I thought it was an impossible burger, but it turned out to be a cow.

Elizabeth Winkler: 13:55

Secrets, hold all my energy, my evolution, my empathy. Oh my God.

davidji: 14:00

Elizabeth, do you remember months ago when you came up with that acronym? That was just like so crazy. And then it creeps into every single aspect. It’s so pure shadow and lighty, yeah.

Elizabeth Winkler: 14:11

So shame Secrets hold all my evolution or energy, or empathy, whichever I’ve always been a fan of the energy.

davidji: 14:18

So tell us in the comments whether you like evolution, whether you’re on that team, whether you like energy. And what’s the third one? Empathy, Empathy. Yeah, I’ve always seen that one as the third place. I see, you know energy is like yes, well, I was with you.

Elizabeth Winkler: 14:35

So when I thought of it, I’m like energy. That was where I went. And then my group was like evolution, everyone was like evolution evolution oh, that’s great. So you know I went with the group.

davidji: 14:44

Depending on where you are in a given moment, that E is going to mean different things to you. So exciting. So I want to go back to this concept of the fear of being changed by the conversation. It’s a Star Wars kind of thing. There’s a tear in the force, there’s a disruption in the force, and once the force is disrupted, then everything in existence changes forever. It’s sort of like those movies where they go okay, we’re going to time travel back a hundred years ago, but don’t change anything. Any change you make will change history forever and destroy the planet. And of course they go back in time and then suddenly they see someone and it’s like, oh my God, and they fell in love. It’s like don’t fall in love with that person from 1840. It’ll destroy the planet when we fast forward back to our modern time.

davidji: 15:34

So this concept of some part of us knows that by telling the truth it’s going to awaken something that we have kept asleep and I think that’s horrifying to us. I think we have, like you know the phrase let sleeping dogs lie. I think we’ve been really, really comfortable. I don’t need to shake something up. That could be a boundary, that could be a new standard, and maybe there’s a new truth then that we have to live by, because anyone who’s ever made an internal vow it’s you and me forever, babe Doesn’t have to be a formal vow, but just that. And then suddenly it’s like oh, I guess it’s not. Did I mean that when I said it the first time, or was I just saying something and it’s now the thing?

Elizabeth Winkler: 16:18

Yeah, but through these conversations we get to discover what our truth is Talking about. The betrayal is again. That’s just the very tip of the iceberg. I do think it’s worthy to go there. We’re talking about shame. We’re talking about fear. Fear has a story about the shame. That’s not true. It’s never true.

Elizabeth Winkler: 16:39

You know we’ve talked about this a lot that, like it talks about that room and how you can’t go in that room because if you go in that room, terrible things are going to happen and typically when you go in that room, transformation happens, healing happens. The silence is what kills us. You know. They say you’re as sick as your secrets. I say secrets hold all my energy, but start with yourself. Start with a trusted therapist, talk to them about it and see what happens. If you can’t do it with your partner or your whatever your friend, whoever it is, start somewhere and see what happens, because it typically never goes the way you think it’s going to go. Of course, it could be very challenging, but maybe there’s some dharma in this, maybe there’s some teaching for you.

davidji: 17:30

Yeah, I think so. You know so brilliant that you really began this conversation with the inner aspects, because that’s probably inner shame as well, where the truth is going to reveal something that I’m not proud of. I don’t want to be seen in that light. I wanted to be seen as someone who never betrayed my friends, my business partners or my romantic partner, and I can’t say that anymore. Once that’s done, I can say well, I’ve only betrayed a few people in my life, but as opposed to prior to that, you can trust me, I’ve never betrayed anyone.

Elizabeth Winkler: 18:05

That’s very egoic, right? That’s like this that we’re talking about.

davidji: 18:09

And I saw a hold on to that. I’m willing to lie to everyone around me and that creates a shadow. That’s your shadow self.

Elizabeth Winkler: 18:14

That gets created the more you hold on to it, the bigger the shadow is. The thing is we have everything inside Everything. That’s why we say the continuum from the darkest of the dark to the lightest of the light. And so when we can allow ourselves to say I’m embarrassed to say, or I’m not proud of this or whatever it is, then you can be that more human person that you are and you can be more evolved and grow and more awakened.

davidji: 18:43

And I think that sometimes the reason that people hold on to this whisper in their head what if this changes everything? What if me coming clean with this changes everything? What if me telling the truth? And again, not every truth needs to be shared, but there are certain truths that we have.

Elizabeth Winkler: 19:03

Well, it’s like when people make amends, like there’s a rule that you make amends, but not if it’s going to hurt somebody. Right, like you’re not telling every single thing, if you know there’s particular ways to navigate the truth telling. Right Like if what my truth telling is going to create more pain. In this scenario where you’re telling me that you’re, you know, in a relationship, you’re going to say that you cheated on whoever. Of course that’s going to be painful, but there can be healing possible right in that relationship. So you could say well, that’s going to create more pain, but I don’t know.

davidji: 19:38

It’s it’s very nuanced if someone has an affair and then releases it. As a therapist do you always advise come clean it’s ultimately up to that person.

Elizabeth Winkler: 19:52

I’m not going to tell someone what to do or not do. What I’m going to do is help them. If they’re bringing that in, talking to me about it, there’s something there and then we can look at what is the deeper thing that’s driving this right and then they will ultimately decide whether that’s something that they want to share or not share. But I certainly have seen people not and people share. I’ve seen both.

davidji: 20:13

And do you have like a tally of what the results were in the end? How many people who it got shared and how many people who didn’t get shared are still together? No, I don’t have that, and you don’t know if they’re still together, but miserable with each other, and they’re both having affairs now simultaneously right.

Elizabeth Winkler: 20:30

I don’t have those tallies. I don’t.

davidji: 20:36

That’s one of the great things about Elizabeth Winkler she’s not a scorekeeper, she’s just flowing the love in every moment. She’s just helping people transmute their pain into purpose and into healing.

Elizabeth Winkler: 20:47

So pain is my acronym power, as I noticed. So we talked about you named this the alchemy of pain. I did Listen, whether you’re going to talk to your partner about whatever this betrayal is or you’re going to talk to yourself. Please talk to yourself about it, or talk to a therapist about it, or some trusted person on the planet, so that you can transform your pain into power. And that comes from looking within and that is a real thing. But you got to work with the energy inside of you.

davidji: 21:22

That’s the only way. Yeah, I think one of the most beautiful aspects of this whole thing. And again I wanted to pop out the word betrayal in the alchemy of pain. I know there can be so many other pains that we go through, but what I was truly thinking was really betraying ourself, because I think there are so many different levels, and again I always like to think of things in the five realms the physical, the emotional, the material, the relationship, the spiritual.

davidji: 21:52

You know, you even betray yourself when you say, well, I’m not going to eat this kind of food. And then you, and then there you are eating fried chicken fingers, you know, or I’m not going to do this thing. And then suddenly you find yourself in that space of doing it, you’ve betrayed something that you thought was going to, you know, be healthy for you or good for you, and then begin making excuses and rationalize. So the concept of betrayal. I like it because it makes everybody pay attention when you just pop that word out. Betrayal means something to everyone, and if you’ve been triggered by the word betrayal, you have a deep emotional connection to that as well. So why do you think people have such a deep emotional connection just even to that word, to that word.

Elizabeth Winkler: 22:36

Well, it evokes loss. It evokes loss being abandoned, not feeling valued, not feeling loved, not feeling enough, which is at the core of every person. I think that’s what it brings up I’m not good enough or they’re not good enough. And those are really important places to visit within yourself. So if betrayal in your relationship becomes the path for you to visit the not enoughness that exists within you, then apparently that’s the path. Sometimes someone dies, sometimes you have a betrayal in your relationship, sometimes relationship, sometimes you have an addiction. There’s so many different paths to visiting that place within yourself that feels not deserving or not enough. Everyone has it. That’s how we get to explore feeling more than enough. Healing ourselves, healing our inner child, healing the pain of the past is through these present-oriented experiences.

davidji: 23:41

When all of us are born. There’s a certain age, in my opinion, where it’s a progressive losing of innocence. Yes, so when you find out at three days that someone else is responsible for changing your diaper and feeding you, for nine months you were like hanging out at the womb hotel. Everything was taken care of, everything included. Right, You’re getting fed, you’re getting pooped, you’re getting peed, being nourished, being warmed, being held, all that stuff. You’re just being taken care of.

davidji: 24:13

And then suddenly, I don’t know, maybe it’s on day two or day three where you suddenly realize oh, if I don’t cry or whine or do something, they’re not going to feed me or change me or keep me warm.

davidji: 24:26

So that’s a certain level of lost innocence, and I think there are so many different layers of innocence that we keep losing. But I think this is one of those as well. If I make a pledge to you and you and I are aligned in that pledge, and then I change the terms of that agreement unceremoniously, then there’s a certain loss of innocence again. You know, Elizabeth, you were talking about this concept of the inner self, inner betrayals. And suddenly this may be a moment where you suddenly realize when you betray a friend or when you betray a lover or when you betray someone that you’re in business with, suddenly it’s a loss of innocence and it’s so hurtful because it’s you, at a much, much more advanced age of cognition, suddenly realizing oh, even at my advanced age of 25, 30, 40, 50, I thought I held this innocence, this purity, this additional aspect of myself that I was once prided myself in, and now that’s not the case.

Elizabeth Winkler: 25:29

But in the pain, in the shame, in the hate, we access that innocence. So there’s this whole journey. We start in innocence, then we go through the pain, the wound, the challenge. It’s quite the hero’s journey. Then you come out through that and through that healing If you’re brave enough to actually go there you recapture the innocence of a child with the wisdom of the adult.

Elizabeth Winkler: 25:56

You’re making me think of this poem that I really want to read. It’s so powerful so we could do a whole other episode on this, but I’m going to read it and you’ll tell me if you want to put another episode. Okay, it’s called On Turning Ten. So you’re talking about when we lose that innocence, and this is about when you turn 10 years old. Who’s it? By Billy Collins On Turning Ten, and this is about when you turn 10 years old. Who’s it? By Billy Collins On turning 10.

Elizabeth Winkler: 26:21

The whole idea of it makes me feel like I’m coming down with something, something worse than any stomachache or the headaches I get from reading in bad light, a kind of measles of the spirit, a mumps of the psyche, a disfiguring chickenpox of the soul. You tell me it’s too early to be looking back, but that is because you have forgotten the perfect simplicity of being one and the beautiful complexity introduced by two, but I can lie on my bed and remember every digit. At four, I was an Arabian wizard. I could make myself invisible by drinking a glass of milk a certain way. At seven, I was a soldier. At nine, a prince.

Elizabeth Winkler: 27:06

But now I’m mostly at the window watching the late afternoon light. Back then it never fell so solemnly against the side of my treehouse and my bicycle never leaned against the garage as it does today. All the dark blue speed drained out of it. This is the beginning of sadness, I say to myself as I walk through the universe in my sneakers. It is time to say goodbye to my imaginary friends, time to turn the first big number. It seems only yesterday I used to believe there was nothing under my skin but light. If you cut me I would shine. But now, if I fall upon the sidewalks of life, I skin my knees.

davidji: 28:03

I bleed Deep, so intense.

Elizabeth Winkler: 28:07

You talk about the loss of innocence. That happens, we can all relate to that, that childlike imaginative spirit which we recapture later in life if we allow ourselves to go there.

davidji: 28:22

So beautiful. Billy Collins, you know there’s a part of us in those early ages I love that turning from nine to the big number that believes in goodness or believes in wholeness, or believes in purity, or believes in the sacred, in people, in promises.

Elizabeth Winkler: 28:42

Possibility.

davidji: 28:42

Possibilities, shared futures, and simply by having one moment where all of that is called into question, everything shifts forever, forever.

Elizabeth Winkler: 28:54

Yeah, this poem is. I think it does weave in because we go through these dark times and so this is about turning 10, but the dark times of relationship or getting older or whatever it is, that’s not the end.

davidji: 29:11

Right, and it’s not numerical. When you’re little like that, it’s really numerical.

Elizabeth Winkler: 29:17

Right.

davidji: 29:18

As we evolve and go through various life stages and relationship stages and begin to work or interact and do other things. It’s not necessarily a chronological thing. It’s an experiential thing where this happens.

Elizabeth Winkler: 29:32

And you get to reclaim all of that. You get to reclaim all of the Arabian night all of that.

davidji: 29:41

You get to reclaim all of the Arabian night. How do I reclaim knowing that when I slice my flesh, blood will flow? How do I reclaim, when I slice my flesh, light will shine from it? What can I do? That’s today’s takeaway and it’s really living the light, because we are cutting our flesh and letting light flow from it. How do we reclaim the light?

Elizabeth Winkler: 30:00

It’s working with the wounds falling on the sidewalks of life. I skin my knees, I bleed, being with the reality of that being, with the humanness of your existence, and honoring and loving that rather than judging and hating it.

davidji: 30:14

I feel so sad right now. Should I stay in this sadness for a while, or is there something you should do to me to make me be happier or less sad, or something I should do?

Elizabeth Winkler: 30:25

Well, stop shitting all over yourself first, because that’s going to just create a lot of guilt. For those that haven’t heard that episode Just so you know.

davidji: 30:32

She said stop shitting all over yourself. Yeah, shitting.

Elizabeth Winkler: 30:36

The word should creates guilt and a victim space. I’m so victimized, right now Self-victimized. So what do you want? I change the word should to want.

davidji: 30:47

I’m not sure, but my heart is heavy after listening to that and I do feel a sadness. There’s a beauty. There’s a beautiful sadness.

Elizabeth Winkler: 30:55

A beautiful sadness, and isn’t life that way? Isn’t there a beautiful sadness to all of these things, to the light in the dark, a tender misery inside of my heart. So what do you want to do with that tender misery? Do you want to ignore it? Do you want to avoid it? Do you run from it? Or what if? What? If you were to allow yourself to sit with it, to be with it, to be uncomfortable, I think I just want to put on Toni Braxton’s Unbreak my Heart.

Elizabeth Winkler: 31:26

This is why these songs are written right. It speaks to the reason. Whenever I read this poem, everyone feels it because everyone relates to it, because we do not connect in perfection. We connect in this. We connect in the brokenness. That is what happens here. That’s what happens here, and we can find many different paths through it and beyond it and help each other along the way, or we can avoid it, and then we lie to ourselves and betray ourselves, and that brings us back to self-betrayal and betrayal in our relationships. So ultimately, that’s what we’re doing.

davidji: 32:04

Billy Collins was the Poet Laureate of the United States from 2001 to 2003. How about that? Wow, that really—I’m done, I know.

Elizabeth Winkler: 32:17

I knew. I knew it would I’m done. I know I knew. I knew it would I’m done You’re welcome.

davidji: 32:21

Yeah Well, I don’t want everyone to leave with feeling like so I’ll never listen to them again. I don’t want to feel that.

Elizabeth Winkler: 32:28

I don’t think that’s what it is. It’s reality, reality is that life?

davidji: 32:31

I understand we need to give people a way out of this though this is truth.

Elizabeth Winkler: 32:40

Life is both. It’s both things. I think that it makes people feel seen.

davidji: 32:42

I think that people feel seen.

Elizabeth Winkler: 32:43

I have a lump in my throat right now.

davidji: 32:48

Let’s work with it and I didn’t even. Yeah, okay, let’s do that.

Elizabeth Winkler: 32:51

All right, so People feel seen when I read this. I read this to people sometimes because they have a kid, kid is turning 10, or because we’re working with something within themselves. Everyone can relate to this. It’s true, we have that innocence. And when did that? You talked about the end of innocence. That’s why I read this. First love, the first guy I fell in love with, and when that ended I thought that was going to be forever and that felt like the end of innocence for me. That loss was tremendous. So we all have different stories of our lives, of this, and then we can reclaim that innocence, but it’s not from avoiding the pain of that we have to. Only through walking through it do we actually find our true power and our true self. So how are you feeling right now?

davidji: 33:49

I want to click on the episode. That’s the Unbreak my Heart episode by Elizabeth Winkler and davidji.

Elizabeth Winkler: 33:57

How’s your heart?

davidji: 33:59

Yeah, v, okay’s your heart Heavy.

Elizabeth Winkler: 34:00

Okay, go there. Can you be okay with that? Can you just say I’m feeling heavy and that’s okay, I am allowing. Yes, I can.

davidji: 34:10

Yes, I can. I can go to that place because I always learn so much every time we do an episode, and this had been an area that I had not been thinking about. Obviously, what it’s doing to me is re-sparking the flickering candle of these various moments in my life where, suddenly, that became apparent to me and that became apparent to me, and that became apparent to me and that became apparent to me.

Elizabeth Winkler: 34:33

So what’s becoming apparent to you right now?

davidji: 34:35

That sounds like the Emerson question, right? Ralph Waldo Emerson would ask that Every time he hadn’t seen someone in a long time, upon meeting them, bumping into them again, he would say what has become clear to you since the last time we were together? So what has become apparent to me? I’ve had quite an evolutionary life and I’m deeply grateful. And I don’t mourn those releasing of my innocence. I don’t mourn that at all. I just suddenly became aware of how many moments of transcendence I would like to refer to it as that that I’ve had where something I thought suddenly blew my mind because it wasn’t actually the case and maybe it needed to be the case for that period of time. And then we evolve.

Elizabeth Winkler: 35:22

Say more about this.

davidji: 35:23

Well, it comes back to your shame acronym, I think, because the secrets hold all my evolution, which now speaks much more importantly than energy. To that I’m excited to embrace my next thing. But I know, in saying yes to the next, to the new, to the now, that I also have to release my grip on the thing of the past that I was holding, because that was very relevant then but not really relevant now. So I see this as very, very powerful teaching. So I see this as like very, very powerful teaching, and as I say this, my throat’s still a little sticky, but my heart is light as a feather. Right now it’s almost like yes, bring my next loss of innocence please.

Elizabeth Winkler: 36:12

So all the boxes are being burned again. Perhaps, the hoarding.

davidji: 36:17

Perhaps, but it made me think of that. What is that End of the Innocents, that Don Henley? Yes, perhaps the hoarding?

Elizabeth Winkler: 36:21

perhaps, but it made me think of that. What is that end of the innocence? That don henley yes, that song actually was playing with the guy that I, that broke my heart.

Elizabeth Winkler: 36:25

The first love oh my god, oh yeah, yeah. So that song I remember that was playing. So it’s like perfectly like in my samskara the end of the innocence. Yeah, that song I remember when we were dating it came out, we were in high school and I remember that song playing. So then when we were dating it came out, we were in high school, oh wow, and I remember that song playing. So then when it ended it was all the more dramatic, right, yeah, so play the end of the innocence at the end of this episode, yeah.

davidji: 36:52

So what is that poem called by Billy Collins?

Elizabeth Winkler: 36:55

It is called On Turning Ten. On Turning Ten.

davidji: 36:59

Wow, one of the most profound things I’ve ever heard come out of your lips, and you have so much profundity pouring through your lips. I’m so grateful to you and Billy Collins and I’ll probably now end up like exploring him all his poems. He’s like one of the great poets of our time.

Elizabeth Winkler: 37:14

So what’s becoming apparent to you? Now I’m going to ask it again.

davidji: 37:23

That things that I find agonizing in a particular moment, with a different lens or understanding, can become healing and elevating.

Elizabeth Winkler: 37:33

Oh, and you’re the one that sprung the alchemy of pain. Oh, yes, I did yes. And so it’s perfect because that’s what you sprung on and you got it. So you got what you asked for.

davidji: 37:45

The Alchemy of Pain. I’m not titling any other episodes this season.

Elizabeth Winkler: 37:52

Perfect.

davidji: 37:54

Wow, what a powerful, powerful experience. Really so great, so unbelievable. My name is davidji. I’m here with the alchemist of pain, Elizabeth Winkler, and Mateo on the board. We are the shadow and the light. Keep alchemizing your pain and I know it’s really scary coming to that threshold that we have to step across from what was to what is. But in that present moment experience, that’s what all the healing is. So, as Elizabeth always says, the wound is the way. Let’s go there Doesn’t mean it won’t hurt while we’re in there, but that’s where the truth lies and that’s where the beauty and growth in life truly resides. From the sweet spot of the universe. The shadow and the light is brought to you by Exactly. We have no sponsors. We are here for you under every circumstance. We are not looking to compromise ourselves or betray our souls. We are only looking to bring you pure shadow and pure light. Enjoy it, Jamar, come on.

Music: 39:15

Let’s do this. The ways of the heart and that secret place. That is where I find my start. The light Is here to remove all my fears and to bring new sight. The light Is a cloud that’ll go to the deep To take me to you. The light, the shadow and the light. There’s hope out in rock bottom. You hold it as you’re holding me, but don’t rush past this moment. The darkness can become a friend. Love will come by your side and you’ll shine brighter than a million suns A million suns. You went through hell, but now you’re in the light. It is here to remove all your fears and to bring new sight.

Music: 40:14

The light, the light. It is love that will go to the deep to take you to new heights. The shadow and the light has come because it loves us. The light has come to set us free. The shadow comes because it loves us. The shadow comes because it loves us. The shadow comes to set us free. The light is here to remove all our fears and to bring new life. The light, the light. It’s a light that will go on to the deep To take us to new heights. The Shadow and the Light.