Are JUDGMENTS holding you back? DO THIS & Finally be FREE!

Music: 0:00

I will not be afraid of the shadows in the dark. They will lead the way to the hidden pathways of the heart, To that secret place that is where I find my start.

Elizabeth Winkler: 0:17

Welcome to the Shadow and the Light podcast with internationally renowned meditation teacher, davidji.

davidji: 0:23

And heart healer and psychotherapist Elizabeth Winkler, as we guide you through our unique fusion of ancient wisdom and modern psychology.

Elizabeth Winkler: 0:33

Get ready to awaken your true essence.

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Heal your wounds and transform your shadow into in two.

Elizabeth Winkler:

Hi, davidji.

davidji: 1:04

Oh, hello there, Elizabeth, stop judging me. What Exactly? This is our episode where we talk about this concept of judgment. We’re in constant judger mode and it’s so funny. When someone says I’m a judger, we instantly feel that they’re judging us. But it’s all self-judgment. All judgment is really, but it’s all self-judgment. All judgment is really stemming from this self-judgment, and our realm of comparison is so extreme and I find myself navigating this every single day. Elizabeth, this is just like so, so powerful. This is where people are throwing shade based on what they otherwise are thinking of something else. Everything is always so comparative and judgment-oriented. Gossiping certainly comes from that same place. These are all self-esteem aspects. What are we trying to do? It feels safe to add velocity or weight to somebody else’s gossip or negative commentary. Probably every single moment of all of your therapy, there’s conversations where judgment is a core component of that. Speak to that.

Elizabeth Winkler: 2:18

Well, I think that judgment is just. Well, it’s natural, first of all, to our mind. Our mind naturally judges and compares and catastrophizes and does these sorts of things. Our minds are very negative. You know there’s a negativity bias. And why is that? It’s natural.

davidji: 2:36

Is it because it stems from our fight flight impulse to always be safe and to always be in an environment? So we have to be in constant judger or analysis mode of is this environment safe? Are these people safe?

Elizabeth Winkler: 2:49

That’s certainly true. If you’re in a fight or flight space, right. If you’re not feeling safe and you’re in your amygdala, you’re definitely going to be more hypervigilant and that basically puts you in your amygdala and you flip your lid. As Dan Siegel said, which is the prefrontal cortex, is no longer available to you.

Elizabeth Winkler: 3:11

And the prefrontal cortex is how we have new ways of thinking and conscious choice making Right, and so we don’t have that ability when we are in the amygdala, which is fear base, fear right but judgment. To me, we go to nonviolent communication, which you introduced in your Masters of Wisdom teacher training, and I love that so much, marshall Rosenberg. For those that are interested in nonviolent communication is a wonderful tool for really dealing with these ways that we communicate Within the mindfulness field. You’ll hear discernment rather than judgment. You know discerning rather than judging, because judging goes into this dualistic paradigm good, bad, right, wrong and duality is not reality. You know, duality is a part of our brain.

davidji: 3:56

Oh, stop, stop, stop. Here you go again. Here you go again. You know she’s got trillions of these mic drop lines. Duality is not reality and, of course, the foundation for so many of these ancient wisdom teachings is known as Advaita A-D-V-A-I-T-A. Advaita, which means non-dualism. What’s non-dualism? Oneness. So we live in such a binary and dual existence right, wrong, good, bad.

Elizabeth Winkler: 4:26

This is the way that the brain is, but it’s the language component of our brain, right? So we, as human beings, can communicate. That’s a great thing. We’re here communicating, right. However, so much of it it’s practical, so we all had a time that we needed to be here so that we could be on time and communicate and be on the podcast and all that sort of thing. That’s important. That’s a part of understanding using language. So there’s like the word here and there’s the word there, right. So I might say, okay, the book is over there and I’m using that to help you get what you need to get, but we never get there. We’re always here, right? There is not a place that we will ever be. There is a place that I’m pointing to, right? You know what is the saying?

davidji: 5:08

The book is. You would say the book is over there and I’m holding the Bhagavad Gita in my hands right now and I would say no, it’s not over there, it’s over here.

Elizabeth Winkler: 5:15

Right, so we never are there and it’s just like now. This goes into the power of now, but to stay with the finger pointing at there, it’s like what’s the saying? The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. That’s a teaching. But people get lost in these labels, so people get lost in there. Or I mean this is a very People confuse the map for the territory.

Elizabeth Winkler: 5:38

Exactly exactly. And so we get really lost in these labels. We believe them to be complete and total when they are just pointers. Most of our language is just a pointer towards something, and so when we can really understand this and understand that we’re using this mind of ours, this amazing mind, gosh so often. I’m talking about how the mind is a troublemaker and a problem. It creates so many problems for us. But we also can use it masterfully. We don’t have to be a slave to it, we can be a master of it. And when we understand the limitation of the language, then we can not fall victim to the trappings of it. When we look at the duality piece, for example, so the mind has to think in duality. It has to Up down good, bad, right, wrong, in order. That’s just how it does. One thing creates the other. But things are not that way, like right now.

Elizabeth Winkler: 6:34

I’m sitting on the chair. That feels like a separate experience. Now, this might be a little weird for people. I’m going to try to take you there. But the experience of sitting on the chair is, I feel the chair, that’s a unity experience of my legs touching the chair. There’s a union there, that’s happening, and so we’re always in a union experience. We’re right now being held by gravity. Think about that. Right now, gravity is holding us safely here on the planet. There’s always like a touching of two things. It’s not separate, there’s never a separate self. So this goes deeply into you.

Elizabeth Winkler: 7:12

Know, if you want to get deeper into this, there’s a lot of wonderful teachers of this. I love Rupert Spira. He’s wonderful on this. This is all the non-duality, mooji Ajishante. They all talk about this in a very in different ways.

Elizabeth Winkler: 7:28

I think that Rupert does a really good way of taking you into that experience of sitting in the chair, and that’s not a separate experience. You are feeling the chair, you are one with the chair, I’m going in a deeper place with it. But we need to be conscious of not falling into the trap of language, and so judgment is such a trap and I think it’s a very violent act that we fall into. You know, when we judge others, we don’t know what people are going through. We mindlessly just look at someone and judge them, which, by the way, has everything to do with us, as you said in the beginning, and has to do with my experience and what I think and what I know, and so I’m projecting all of my stuff onto that person and we never know. And how many times have you been in a situation where you think you know you’ve sized someone up and then or you think you’re talking about.

Elizabeth Winkler: 8:18

I know who you are just as you enter, and then they like, and then they tell you something about themselves and it’s like your heart opens, like, oh, my mother just died this morning. It’s like we’re judging someone because they’re not present or something, or they’re acting like a not nice person and we’re like, oh, what’s wrong with them. And then they’re like my mother just died or whatever it is. But I’m just saying like we never know the pain that someone’s carrying, and so I think if we can extend that with kindness I mean, we’re here to cultivate compassion and kindness within ourselves, hopefully or we can become more judgmental and angry, and I don’t know if that feels very good.

davidji: 8:56

Yeah Well, I know that when you’re throwing shade on somebody, talking smack about them or talking negatively about them in any way, If you are gossiping oh guess what. Or if you’re piling on, someone says there’s so much piling on politically in our world, or every time there’s like some famous person or a celebrity suddenly has one of those moments where they get called out right before the canceling. You know, I mean, what’s the canceling? The canceling isn’t one person, it’s suddenly everyone is summoned and it’s piling on. And so all three of those come from less than mindsets. Why would you throw shade on someone else? Because you’re feeling low and you’re trying to push somebody else lower than you feel. Why would you comment negatively about something someone does? Because you’re not feeling particularly uplifted. When you’re feeling great, the last thing in the world you’re thinking about is putting someone else down oh my God, can you believe she’s wearing that? Or, oh my God, look at her shoes. You call that a song, you know whatever it is. But when you’re riding high and feeling full, the last thing you’re thinking about is that. So it’s clearly. Is my cup full or is my cup feeling empty? To me, less than lack, Same thing with gossip.

davidji: 10:13

Why would we gossip? Because it makes us feel like we’re on the inside of something, Even if it’s not like amazing gossip. That’s why we sort of like sidle up to celebrities or speak nonchalantly or boastingly of our friendships with this person or that person. We may have seen them in an airport, but we’ve got a story you know. We’d be like, oh yeah, there I was at the airport and right across from me was Russell Crowe sitting there. You know one of those kind of things and that almost like, check it out, I’m almost Russell Crowe. You know that type of thing. Again, coming from a less than I need you to view me even more on the inside track and then piling on.

davidji: 10:58

I think in all three of these we sort of lose our humanity, In all of these and Pema Chodron talks about this concept all the time that we can’t really even have compassion for someone true compassion unless we’re on the same level as them. If we’re looking down at them, it’s pity. It’s not compassion, it’s sort of like, whew, good thing, that’s not me, that’s not what’s going on inside of me. But true compassion is empathetic. We see ourselves as the other, we see ourselves on the same plane, and that’s really what that Sanskrit phrase namaste means. Directly translated, it means I bow to you, but it also means I’m neither above nor below you. We are on the same plane. Why? Because my soul is looking at your soul and there’s no hierarchy in you. We are on the same plane. Why? Because my soul is looking at your soul and there’s no hierarchy in souls. We are one. It comes back to that non-dualism, that union, that yoga, that oneness, that Advaita.

Elizabeth Winkler: 11:56

Right. I had a huge teaching around gossip through my own experience, so I want to share that here. When I go to college campuses and speak to, I often go and speak to sororities or groups of women, because when I was in college I went through a lot. My mother died and that was very dark time and I didn’t have the tools that we talk about. I didn’t have the mindfulness practices, I didn’t have meditation, and I remember during college that there was so much gossip and I remember being with women and the moment one left, people were talking about that person right, and then so you knew when you left that you were going to be the next one on the block, right, and so it was a very unsafe feeling. So when I go and talk to college women, I talk about gossip because I think it’s pretty common amongst women in middle school, high school, college, et cetera.

Elizabeth Winkler: 12:55

I have like a compassionate way of looking at it, and the way I look at it is people are really just trying to connect, like people don’t know how to talk. They don’t know how to connect, and when I say to you did you hear? Did you hear what happened? There’s an energy we all know because we’ve all done it and we feel this kind of there’s a connection, and you’re just like, oh, what, tell me, tell me. And like now, like we’re creating this energy of connection which I think is probably my deepest desire in life is to feel connection. I think it’s a deep human need and so I’m like did you hear? And then like, okay, we’ve got this vibe now We’ve got this connection, but of course it’s like full of judgment and all this other stuff, right, but we’re not really focusing on that. I mean, maybe we are, but there’s this connection.

davidji: 13:44

I think that’s really what we’re after, we’re in it together.

Elizabeth Winkler: 13:46

But that’s what we’re really after.

davidji: 13:48

We’re in our conspiracy together.

Elizabeth Winkler: 13:50

Right, but I think, if we look deeper, that really it’s about connection, and so when I bring that forward, I’m like listen, instead of judging people who are gossiping, because that’s just more of it. Can we just see that we really just want to connect and so if you’re in an environment where there’s gossip, those people are trying to connect and maybe you can shift it by finding another way of connecting. Well, why don’t you?

davidji: 14:15

just make it practical right now. So, yes, we’re all going to be hanging out at the cafe, in the room, at the water cooler, whatever, and someone’s going to say to us did you hear? And we know that in that moment they are just trying to create connection how can we without feeding the bad wolf? How can we?

Elizabeth Winkler: 14:38

Read the wolf thing. You need to read. Explain what the wolf thing is.

davidji: 14:42

There are two wolves. This is referred to as an ancient, native, indigenous story. The elder is speaking to his grandson and saying there are two wolves inside of you and they are in a battle with each other, with each other. One is the good wolf. It’s expansive, it’s trusting, it’s curious, it’s creative, it’s loving, it’s trusting in every moment. And then there’s the bad wolf that’s inside of you. It’s jealous, it’s delusional, it’s greedy, it’s angry, it has hatred boiling beneath the surface. And the grandchild then says to the elder oh my God, that’s scary that I have these dualities inside of me, both of these components battling each other. How do you make sure that the good one will be, the one that’s rising up inside of me all the time? Which is the wolf that will win when they’re battling each other? And the elder says the one that you feed.

Elizabeth Winkler: 15:51

Yeah, it’s one of my favorites. I can’t answer that in a black and white answer because it’s not a black and white answer. I think speaking from our heart, I think really listening, is important. And speaking from your heart, I’ve been in situations where I’ve literally been at tables where that’s all that’s going on and I’m just, I have nothing to say.

Elizabeth Winkler: 16:09

I remember an etching in my experience of a friend of mine, because I just don’t participate in it said to me yeah, I’ve noticed you never participate in it. And she said I always trusted you because you’re not into that. And it was because I did participate in it. And she said I always trusted you because you’re not into that. And it was because I did participate in it when I was in college and it felt so terrible, it did not feel good. But I have compassion. I think it’s important for us to understand what’s really going on here. And so it might be. What could you say? You might say that person’s not here. We don’t really know what’s going on for them. We don’t know what’s going on. Going back to what we were talking about before, we’re often judging a person and their experience and it’s like this goes back to something we’ve talked about before. What’s our experience? Nobody knows anyone else’s experience, so you can speak about your own experience. Well, when I went through that, it was hard for me.

davidji: 17:30

I can’t imagine what that person may be going through. All these sorts of things, I think if you go, or perhaps leaders in that, shade-throwing, gossip-making or piling on, we all have at some point, and you may be saying, no, not me, that’s fine, but it may be coming up. So here’s what I do. We’re all familiar with this Quaker tale, this tool, but it goes back deeper than that. This is actually a tool that Socrates spoke about as well, and it’s referred to as the three gates or, if we go back you know, even further than this, referred to as the three sieves, or sieves S-I-E-V-E-S. You know the sieves. This is what, like you sift flour through there, almost a colander, however you want to look at it. Anyway, the three sieves are.

davidji: 18:09

Before a word passes your lips, you ask yourself three questions, and these are the three gates. First, as the word comes to your lips, you might ask yourself is it true? Is what I’m about to say true? If it’s not true, it dies right there. It never leaves your lips. Why in the world would you find the need to speak it? But if it is true, it moves to the next gate where you ask the question is it necessary? And if it’s true but not necessary. It dies right there and then does not need to be spoken. But if it’s true and it’s necessary, then it moves to the third gate. The third gate is is it kind? And then, of course, you have to decide, because there’s some news that you may want to communicate, which breaking up with someone firing someone, parting, with someone delivering really, really horrible news Can you do it kindly? Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind? Now, interestingly enough, that’s how it translated from the Quakers. So we’re talking in the last several hundred years, but going back to that original teaching of Socrates, it was does it add value to the moment? And what I have translated that, as in my life, and use this as a tool for a solid decade plus is does it improve upon the silence? And so if everyone’s piling on, you piling on really can’t improve upon the silence. Your additional voice eight people have just said yes, they’re a horrible person. You coming in, it’s unanimous.

davidji: 19:47

I say that as well is unnecessary when I find myself in those situations. I’m not going to buy in Now. Can I be lured in sometimes and throw my little hand grenade in there to dust stuff up, of course, but when I’m being very, very conscious. And this happened at a family dinner where one member of my family was being particularly harsh on another member of my family for saying something, and then that person was like looking at me and saying how come you’re not attacking this person also? Here’s what I said to myself I actually placed my hands I’m doing it right now placed my hands under my thighs, sitting on them, and then I silently said to myself do you have the patience to wait until your mud settles and the water is clear?

davidji: 20:38

Can you remainmoving until the right action arises by itself? Which is, of course, a quote by the great Chinese philosopher, ancient Chinese philosopher, lao Tzu, and I used that as a mantra for about 10 seconds. It was pretty seductive for me to pop in there. I ran it quickly through the three gates, which now takes me about a second and a half.

davidji: 21:04

Considering that moment, I realized I have nothing really to add to this. I’m not going to make the argument any better by me weighing in. This is not the Supreme Court voting and we needed a majority vote. This is someone’s opinion that maybe I agreed with, maybe not, but my participation didn’t really matter in that. Now, please, I’m not saying that I’m perfect, because there have been times where I’m leaping into the frame or I’m the first one there, but I’m working on it and I’m cultivating it and I’ve been working on this practice probably for a solid 18 years and it feels great when I don’t. It feels great because I always feel crappy when I do, in the aftermath, where I’m laying in bed and my head’s on the pillow.

Elizabeth Winkler: 21:52

I’m like what is it Ojas?

davidji: 21:54

Yes, right, what did I just leave behind? Ojas, sweet vital nectar or Ama, toxic residue? Yeah, Ojas or Ama.

Elizabeth Winkler: 22:00

And it’s like oh damn. So explain to them the teaching of ojas and ama Right.

davidji: 22:09

This goes back to an Ayurvedic teaching. The premise is that there is a fire that’s burning inside of us, it’s our digestive fire, and during the daytime hours between 10 and 2, it’s cooking and we’ll have an episode on Ayurveda, because it presents itself in so many different ways. Ayurveda, the ancient healing system, perhaps 5,000 years old Ayurveda, comes from the Sanskrit roots ayus, which means life, and veda wisdom. This is the wisdom of life, the science of life. It’s perhaps the oldest healing science on the planet, and so the premise is that during that 10 to 2 period, your agni, your fire. The premise is that during that 10 to 2 period, your agni, your fire. Agni is another Sanskrit word that means fire, the beauty of agni. We get the word ignite, ignition, from that ancient, maybe 3,500 year old Sanskrit word, agni, which is your fire inside A-G-N-I. So it’s cooking our food. During the day, the kiln is on and we need to feed it. That’s why Ayurveda says doesn’t matter who you are, what’s going on, your largest meal of the day should be between 10 am and 2 pm, no matter where you live, no matter what your constitution is, and at night, between 10 and 2,. That’s when you’re digesting all your emotions and if you look like I have an aura ring and I, you know if you have a Fitbit or an Apple Watch or a Whoop or some kind of device that tracks you, that’s when you’re getting your greatest amount of deep sleep is in that 10 to 2 period. It’s your digestion phase. That’s why we should always be in bed by 10. And, of course, you’ll have to check out our episode on sleep, because Elizabeth is like certified in dreams, so we have so much to talk about when it comes to sleep and dreams, and I’ve been scientifically, biologically, tracking every single squimpette of my sleep since March of 2020. So I’ve got a lot of data there through my ring.

davidji: 23:56

Anyway, our digestive fire is burning bright and, ideally, if that fire has just the right amount of kindling on top of it, it’s this beautiful fire that consumes everything that comes into it Our food, we ingest it, we digest it and we eliminate it, ideally, perfectly. Our emotions are the same way. If our emotional digestive fire is burning brightly, what does that mean? I’m not sitting in judgment mode. I’m coming from compassion. I’m willing to ask questions before I speak and I’m asking this question always does it improve upon the moment and so after the fact, this is a great tool.

davidji: 24:37

What did I just leave behind? Because if you left behind ama toxic residue, because your digestive fire that was digesting your emotions was like had wet leaves on it, because you were gossiping and because you were throwing shade on someone and because the hormones and chemicals inside of you were making you feel less than all this kind of stuff, then you have left ama behind. All this kind of stuff, then you have left Ama behind. Ask yourself, when you hang up the phone, after you send an email, after you send a text, after you send a DM, after you walk out of the room, what did I just leave behind? Was my fire burning brightly and I left behind Ojas, sweet vital nectar? Or is my fire sputtering, not really digesting things cleanly? Did I leave behind AMA, a-m-a, toxic residue? And of course, it’s after the fact. And if we suddenly go, oh, I think I left behind a pile of poop in your living room. Let me go back in and apologize and clean it up rather than allow it to fester for days, weeks, years, perhaps decades.

Elizabeth Winkler: 25:46

Right. So I think I’m glad you said that, because we have an opportunity to own our impact. You know anyone that we maybe have left that pile of poop in their living room?

davidji: 26:01

It’s a great visual? Yeah, because I walk around with poop bags all the time and I realize I’m often cleaning up and for my dog, but oh, I’m leaving stuff behind as well.

Elizabeth Winkler: 26:11

Right. So owning our impact with our loved ones and our friends and people that we’re hanging out with. I do that a lot with my kids because I feel like that’s something that happens, you know, making repairs where I lose my temper, or whatever it may be, and come back and talk to them about what happened. That’s one way I work with it. I’m reminded, as we’re talking about this subject, the James Baldwin quote. He said I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hate so stubbornly is because they sense once hate is gone, they will be forced to deal with pain. We are projecting our pain. Our judgment is just a projection of stuff we don’t want to look at within ourselves, which is, by the way, what this podcast is all about the shadow, the shadow is unconscious. We don’t know what our shadow is. You can’t say the shadow, the shadow is unconscious. We don’t know what our shadow is. You can’t say like, oh, my shadow is this. You don’t know what your shadow is. It’s unconscious. So what you’re projecting, what’s upsetting you, what disgusts you? That’s an indicator. And our dreams we talked about he was talking about sleep Dreams are a great indicator of your shadow as well, but that’s a whole other podcast episode.

Elizabeth Winkler: 27:22

Anyway, we are often avoiding our own pain by putting it on others. And what does that do? Well, talk about the karmic belt being created. It’s just creating more and more and more. And so if we can become more conscious, we can take responsibility for ourselves, for each other.

Elizabeth Winkler: 27:41

When we go through really difficult times and everyone here I’m sure has been through a difficult time you really get into your heart, you really get into your pain, you really get into the wound. And this is why I always say the wound is the way, because when you come through that, you realize gosh, I don’t want anyone to ever have to go through this. I wish nobody would ever have to feel what I’m feeling. And that’s how compassion is born. When we meet our pain with love, compassion is created. So we have to find ways that we can feel safe within ourselves to connect, because, again, this is about connection within ourselves. To connect because, again, this is about connection internally, connect internally with ourselves so that we can connect more authentically with others. But we have to first start with ourselves. It always comes back to that.

davidji: 28:32

Yeah. So this might be an opportunity. If suddenly you’re at a table and you’re witnessing the conversation is clearly careening into one of these places of either throwing shade or gossiping or piling on and those are just my three it’s so severely into judgment that there’s no one at the table who hasn’t done something worse, and we’re talking about this person. Under this scenario, I have a choice. I can either sit on my hands and say do you have the patience to wait until your mud cells and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving until the right action arises by itself? Or I can say I am the silent witness to myself. Or I could say there, for the grace of God, go I.

Elizabeth Winkler: 29:14

Yes, I actually thought of that this morning. That’s so wild that you just said that, yeah, I hadn’t thought of A really good one, yeah.

davidji: 29:28

Yeah, because it’s true. Or you can suddenly say to everybody there hey, there’s this really really cool teaching by the great teacher, joseph Goldstein. It’s a really cool test. Obviously, I thought I’d share it with all of us and everyone’s going to be like what we were just talking about? Our favorite politician. You know their wink wink. You know about our favorite politician. You know they’re wink wink. You know who they’re throwing shade on, whoever that might be. And I’m like, yeah, here’s what he said.

davidji: 29:59

Let’s see how long all of us can refrain from speaking about someone who’s not here. How long can we allow that to go on? And you don’t have to live your life by this. But how about, like during this meal? Let’s see, there’s enough amazing people right here at this meal that we could talk about.

davidji: 30:22

And the teaching the Goldstein teaching is whether they’re like a saint or a sinner in our mind, it doesn’t matter. We don’t talk about Mother Teresa and we don’t talk about Mother Teresa and we don’t talk about the most evil person who’s ever existed. We only talk about if they’re here. We talk about them, and I have made an exception If they’re playing on the music that we’re listening to. So if we’re hanging out and it’s just you and me. We’re going to talk about you and me, but suddenly if Beyonce comes on, she’s here.

davidji: 30:53

So we’re going to talk oh, who produced that Jay-Z? Okay, we could talk about him too, but the second that song ends nope, no more. Then you have to move on to Prince or whoever’s coming out of the thing. It’s a fun thing, it’s a pattern interrupt which will certainly break the flow of that gossip or shade or judgment or negative talk or piling on, and it’s like a cool thing. I’ve done it a few times. I’ve also been with people who are from New York when I’ve shared it and they’ve all just rolled their eyes and said, you know, whatever? And then just dismissed me and continued with their gossiping and piling on. Clearly I was changing the tide in that situation. It works more effectively when I’m talking to Californians because they’re more tender and softer.

Elizabeth Winkler: 31:35

Well, and we all have this mind, this egoic mind that acts in this way. But we also have a deeper level. Anyone can access it. But you’re reminding me with this. There, for the grace of God, go. I is my whole teaching on the boomerang effect, which is very much about judgment.

davidji: 31:54

Okay, no one knows what you’re talking about.

Elizabeth Winkler: 31:57

Okay, I’m just going to name it and we’ll do a whole episode on it.

davidji: 31:59

So this is Just give a little bit of an exploration. We would call this in the trade a tease, a little bit of a teaser for an upcoming episode on the boomerang effect.

Elizabeth Winkler: 32:11

But please just share a little bit of a teaser for an upcoming episode on the boomerang effect. But please just share a little bit. So I’ve like said to myself I think I have to write a book on this, but maybe it’ll just be a chapter in the book.

davidji: 32:16

I’m already working on or a podcast episode.

Elizabeth Winkler: 32:19

I’ll start there, because I see so many people every day and I’ve seen them for over 20 years, so I see a lot of patterns, and one of the things that’s been fascinating is that I’ll see someone. I’ll give an example. A woman came in and was in a very judgmental space talking about her partner. A week later she came to my office. She was exactly displaying the exact behavior she was criticizing and judging. That’s an example of the boomerang effect what you put out comes back. It’s karma. What you put out into the field comes right back. So be careful what you judge, because guess what? It’s coming back. Where I see it more often, which is really interesting, is in relationships and breakups. So you go out with someone and you say you break up with that person and then in your next relationship you’re that person. The roles switch and you are the person that got broken up with and like whatever you judged about them or they judged about you, now you’re in their place. I see this all the time. It’s fascinating.

davidji: 33:25

So explain this I break up with somebody and then I have a rebound relationship.

Elizabeth Winkler: 33:32

It doesn’t have to be a rebound relationship. You could have taken a year off, worked on yourself and, however you judge that person or size them up, you have now absorbed.

Elizabeth Winkler: 33:42

No, you become. And what happens? I think it’s a way to cultivate compassion. The universe is trying. I see this all the time with my clients. They’re like gosh, I feel like my ex right now. Okay, I’ll give an example. Like I’m a woman and I’m really into this guy and the guy’s not as into me and he ends up breaking up with me. And then this is just a slight example the next relationship it’s the opposite, right, Someone’s really into you and you’re like whatever.

Elizabeth Winkler: 34:07

Yeah, and you’re like, oh my gosh, I understand how this other person felt. I feel the same way. I really like them, but I’m not like in love with them and they’re really in love with me. So what it does, that flip allows you to forgive potentially who you judged.

davidji: 34:24

Well, that boomerang is a powerful lesson, if you recognize it and or absorb it.

Elizabeth Winkler: 34:29

Yes, what I think it’s actually trying to do is help you. It’s walking you home what Ram Dass said we’re all walking each other home. It’s walking you home to an experience that maybe you didn’t get the full teaching from, and so it’s bringing it in another person’s body and it’s saying, okay, now can you see? And so that’s how I seen it.

davidji: 34:51

And I think it’s like a karmic belt sort of thing. I’ve seen that. I never had the articulation of it that you have. But I’ve always said you break up with an accountant because they’re too beige, they’re too milquetoast, they’re too vanilla, but you’re wild and crazy and so you dump them and your next partner rides a Harley. You go into all these biker bars and stuff like that, but they’re too intense for you.

Elizabeth Winkler: 35:14

And now you’re dull and boring. Right, you’re the dull one and they’re telling you this and you’re like, oh my gosh, I know how they felt. Yeah, exactly so this is. And you’re like where’s the accountant? I need an accountant, I miss him. But I think, if we really look deeply into this, not just as okay, I was reacting, but actually that it is a cultivation.

davidji: 35:34

These are just extremes that we’re putting out there, that was a good example.

Elizabeth Winkler: 35:37

So it’s a way that we can understand other people, forgive them, and when we forgive, we grow our capacity to be happier, have more joy and less judgment, which is what this episode is all about.

davidji: 35:52

Wow, we’ve touched a lot of things. We’ve touched a lot of things and we have really shared so many real world action items. I know I shared a whole bunch of tools and Elizabeth shared a whole bunch of tools. The number one tool is self-awareness. Okay, living the light, it’s time for today’s takeaway.

Elizabeth Winkler: 36:09

So I have a mantra for judgment which is maybe, maybe not, and it really helps to go back to the beginning. We were talking about the mind and we get stuck in the mind and the duality Duality is not reality. So whenever you’re stuck in a judgmental thought, you just say maybe, maybe not, and that allows you to be more open to new possibilities.

davidji: 36:33

My name is davidji. I’ve been here with Elizabeth Winkler. We are the Shadow and the Light podcast. I would encourage you to share this episode with your friends and loved ones anyone you know out there who might be judging a little bit and to like and subscribe. Judging a little bit and to like and subscribe. Why don’t we just take a long, slow, deep breath in and allow our eyelids to gently float closed as we exhale and just allow Jamar’s words to ripple through us?

Music: 37:05

The break of the shadows in the dark. They will lead the way To the hidden pathways of the heart and that secret place. That is where I find my start. The light Is here to remove all my fears and to bring new signs. The light is here to remove all my fears and to bring new sight. The light is the time that will go to the deep to take me to new heights.

Music: 37:49

The shadow and the light. There’s no fault in prop or no. You hold it as your own limit, but don’t rush past this moment Bye. It is here to remove all your fears and to bring new sight. The light it is not able to go to the deep to take you to the light, To the light. The light has come because of us. The light has come because of us. The light has come because it loves us. The light has come to set us free. The shadow comes because it loves us. The shadow comes to set us free. The light is here to remove our fears and to bring new life. The light is here to remove our fears and to bring new life. The shadow and the light and light.