Is it really true? LETS FIND OUT!

Elizabeth Winkler: 0:18

Welcome to the Shadow and the Light podcast with internationally renowned meditation teacher, davidji.

davidji: 0:24

And heart healer and psychotherapist Elizabeth Winkler, as we guide you through our unique fusion of ancient wisdom and modern psychology.

Elizabeth Winkler: 0:34

Get ready to awaken your true essence, heal your wounds and transform your shadow into.

davidji: 0:44

Hi, davidji. Oh, hello there Elizabeth. The shadow and the light morning, and I could see Pema Chodron, the first American Buddhist nun, just whispering to me.

davidji: 1:30

She often does, certainly during my meditation, but there’s a quote of hers and it just like came to me. The truth you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new, makes you unavailable to hear anything new, and that just started with the trajectory of my day. What belief am I clinging to, what belief am I holding on to so dearly which is preventing me from actually seeing the truth or the light, or something deeper? So, Elizabeth, I know that you have explored this with so many of your clients over the years and really can bring so much illumination to this. What’s your take on this?

Elizabeth Winkler: 2:16

Well, the funny thing is, what you come to realize is that beliefs are just a bunch of thoughts that you keep on thinking, right, and they’re not true. So when we’re working on spirituality or evolution or enlightenment, whatever you want to call it, we’re connecting to truth, not beliefs, and we bump into our beliefs through that process and the beliefs are blocking us from actually accessing the abundance of truth. Beneath all of that, I love this topic. It’s something I talk about a lot. When I’m on a Zoom with someone, I’ll hold up a pen and I’ll say do you believe this is a pen or do you know it’s a pen? You, it’s a pen, it’s a pen, right? Do you believe this is a room we’re in or you know it’s a room? You know, you know something, something is true, you know it, it is, you know, and we’re doing that all the time and just not even thinking about it. Right, but we hold on, as you said, what Pema said, that we hold on to our beliefs as if they are truth, and that’s fine. People can do that, but it blocks you from your abundance.

Elizabeth Winkler: 3:29

So one way to work with this I often tell this story about myself, Because when we meditate, we clear the space within. We clear the space within, but meditation isn’t always enough, right, we need to do inquiry. And so, with beliefs, I really believe that inquiry is the key that helps. If you think of these things like knotted up threads, we have all these thoughts that we keep thinking these are threads and then they knot up within us and they create these beliefs of who I am or what I believe, and it creates a lot of conflict and challenge in our lives. But in order for us to untie these knots, we need to inquire at times. So here’s my personal story.

Elizabeth Winkler: 4:22

Many, many years ago I was outside on my lunch break from work, I was on the phone with my sister and I used to have this story you know, it’s a story about myself, which it was a belief that I was very ungrounded. And it was true, I wasn’t a very grounded person until I started meditating regularly. But that really kind of disappeared when I started meditating regularly. But that really kind of disappeared when I started meditating regularly. And I was sometimes, you know, when you’re talking to someone, you hear yourself say something you’re like where did that come from, Right? So I’m on the phone with my sister and I said to her. I’m so excited to see my meditation teacher later today.

Elizabeth Winkler: 5:00

I’m just so not grounded and it just came out of my mouth. It was so bizarre because I hadn’t said that in so long and I kind of stood back for myself and I asked myself the question this is one of the teachings of today. Is that true? Is that true? And I connected to myself and I totally felt grounded and I’m like it’s not true. And it was as if this belief that had been true and lived in me for so many years had released, had released maybe from a meditation practice, from my experience. But there was this tiny little piece of the thread left and it came out in that conversation and by asking is it true, I was able to release it.

davidji: 5:45

That first moment of inquiry occurred because those words left your lips. Those words left your lips and then suddenly it was out into the ether and that’s where you had the opportunity to go. Oh, that’s, you know. It’s when we say anything and it doesn’t instantly resonate with our heart. It was an inauthentic expression.

Elizabeth Winkler: 6:09

It was just, it was robotic. It was this loop that we all have. We have these loops that live in us, that are stored in us, and when we question it and this is such a powerful practice I really want to encourage people to start to practice this questioning of is that true? Is that true? And then all you do is connect to your body. You will naturally. Is it true? It has to be totally true, like 100% true for it to be true. Not, sometimes, maybe Is it true, and you’ll connect in and I was like it’s not true. I totally feel grounded and it never, ever came out again. It was like that was the final piece of the thread that released out of me and it created more space. So beliefs need to be inquired. You need to inquire into them. You need to play with this question of is it true to really connect with your truth, not your beliefs. So that’s one of the ways that I work with it. It’s a powerful practice.

Elizabeth Winkler: 7:16

I’ll be working with someone who’s a high achiever and they’ll be putting themselves down or saying it’s not enough. You know they’re really good at what they do and they’ll say like, oh, you know this isn’t going to be good enough. They’ll say some kind of not enough belief system and I’ll stop them. I’ll say, is that true? Like I’m not going to perform well or whatever it is. And I’ll say ask yourself if that’s true.

Elizabeth Winkler: 7:39

And almost every single time they immediately there’s actually no hesitation and they say no, it’s not true. We know that these things aren’t true. That we’re telling it’s like an old thing that we were programmed as children about our not enoughness, and it creates this self-content that the ways that we put ourselves down, judge ourselves or say that we’re not enough, and it’s like this coal in the fire that’s burning this engine of the ego. And if we can allow ourselves to actually inquire and be like, well, is that true? I mean, it might’ve been true, maybe at one point, I don’t know. But is that true now? And there’s all of these people that are still running off that and I just want to encourage people to start to question is it true? And be more free.

davidji: 8:28

Yeah, well, this goes back at least to the teachings of Patanjali in the Yoga Sutras, written around 2000 years ago, somewhere between 300 BC and 300 AD somewhere in that window of time they believed is when Potentially wrote the Yoga Sutras. And he talks about this concept that we are pure, unbounded consciousness. That’s who we are. We’re pure, unbounded consciousness and that when we’re in the zone or that at various times in our life and in our day or in our week, we are so authentic and we’re so aligned that we are truly abiding in our true nature. And that’s so encouraging. But Patanjali is a realist as well and he says other times there are these modifications of the mind, modifications of the mind, and those five modifications of the mind that Patanjali talks about are right cognition or right knowledge. Being right when we’re in our rightness, we are in fact not abiding in our true nature. Wrong cognition when we think we’re right but we’re wrong. We’re definitely not abiding in our true nature when we’re delusional or misapprehending things. He uses the word memory. I like to say the past. When we’re in the past, when we’re in memory, we are certainly not abiding in our true nature. Fully aligned, that’s our victimhood can be it’s also beautiful memories, but we’re not present. When he says the word imagination, I prefer the future. When we’re spending time in the future, we’re also not abiding in our true nature. And then his fifth category is sleep, which of course includes dreams. But he drills down a little bit into this right cognition or right knowledge and sort of like, breaks it apart, and one of these is direct perception. So is this right? Because I saw it happen, I witnessed this, I saw it happen, I am convinced. And yet we know that in virtually every police matter, whoever the witnesses are, they’re often wrong. They insist it was a man in a green coat driving a red car and it turns out, oh no, it was a man in a red coat driving a green car, and then forget it. You’re never even going to find that person. So some often witness testimony is actually not correct. But direct perception is probably the closest we could ever come to like knowing something to be true. I was there to witness it. But we’ve all seen a UFO and it’s like oh, I guess it wasn’t a UFO, it was a drone and it was just moving in the darkness, or it was a shooting star or something along those lines.

davidji: 11:22

He also refers just to the concept of inference, which is like, well, I’m not really witnessing it, but it could be implied from this moment that it’s true. If you show up at my door and ring my doorbell and you have a broken umbrella in your hand and you’re dripping wet and it’s raining out, I could assume, oh, you got caught in the rain. That would be my truth, my belief in that moment, and you could say, oh, actually, no, I got driven here. But just as I got out of the car, a truck came by and splashed me and broke my umbrella. Who knows what that is. So there’s direct perception, there’s inference, and then there’s the testimony and authority of trusted sources. So I don’t really know it to be true, but somebody who I trust told me it’s true, but of course they may be misconstruing it as well. So these are all in like, the categories of like, what’s the valid means of knowing something? And I think, the fact that there’s so much wiggle room, whether it’s even in direct perception, whether it’s inference, whether it’s testimony or somebody claiming it to be true.

davidji: 12:33

I remember you know someone that I admire so, so much. She’s a newscaster and during COVID she said if you get the vaccine. Not only will it prevent you from getting COVID, but also you can’t give it to anyone else. She was insistent upon her saying that I was like. Well, she said it and you know that was my authority and my testimony from a trusted source. It turned out no, that is not correct in any way. So there’s the truth you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new.

davidji: 13:08

Elizabeth Winkler is known for her special little sign that she has. It’s this little sign, that’s maybe, maybe not, or I’m pretty sure. I have no idea. Obviously, if you’re rolling up to the intersection and the light is red, there’s a high likelihood you’re going to stop. The light is telling you stop. It’s not green.

davidji: 13:29

But suddenly we start to realize there’s so many shades of gray in every single nuanced understanding that we have. It would be a gift to ourselves to consistently ask about a lot of different things that we’re so fixed on and we’ve grown roots into. What if it wasn’t true? And I find this whenever I have a blockage about what I can do physically. Sometimes I’m elevated enough to do that mentally, but when suddenly I get the message oh, you can’t pull that off, that tree’s a little too high for you to climb, or that extra half a mile on your hike is probably a little too much, or whatever. That’s when I’ll ask myself well, what is this based on? What, if that wasn’t true? And that’s how I push beyond my physical comfort zone when I’m trying certain things, and certainly my emotional comfort zone and my mental comfort zone. Does this make sense to you?

Elizabeth Winkler: 14:25

Totally. And I mean, when you’re talking about past and future, what I’m thinking over here is like it’s just all mind. I mean, he’s talking about the modifications of the mind, right? So the mind wants certainty, the mind wants to be able, or whether it wants it, or that’s just what it does. It recycles the past, the mind, we’re referencing our mind. Okay, something happens, we get activated in our bodies, emotional or something like that, and we don’t necessarily like that. So we move into our mind and the mind can only reference the past. So you’re only going to get the computer you know of our mind is the programming is the past, so you can’t get anything fresh and new. But we are people who like certainty and so we think that that’s the truth. But it’s just a set of beliefs, right? So the other option is to get out of the mind. You know, and in order to get out of the mind, you can use a mantra. He just davidji, you just said one, maybe, maybe not. I you have the thought oh, I can’t, I can’t do that extra mile. Maybe, maybe not. Use that mantra for judgment. Drop back into the present moment and see what happens. It’s uncertain. The present moment is uncertain, but it’s also a new path and this is something that I remember. I mean, I think this is a natural progression as we work on ourselves, as we do more meditation, mindfulness, inquiry, whatever your spiritual practices may be that open you up, that help you heal your heart and become more available to the present moment.

Elizabeth Winkler: 16:08

When I was going through that, I remember I called it. I called what I was experiencing, living in the question mark. That’s what I felt like. I felt like I was living in a question mark which, by the way, was not very comfortable. It’s like I don’t know, I don’t know what, I don’t know who I, you know like there’s this whole don’t know mind, which is beginner’s mind. We’ve talked about it before. Where you’re open, you’re available, you know. But it’s also that sounds great, like when I’m looking at the sunset or I’m looking at the moon, like I’m open, I’m curious, or I’m a new place. That’s an open and available space, but it also feels, it can feel uncomfortable.

Elizabeth Winkler: 16:48

Well, it starts to happen to you as you lose your beliefs, which is, I think, why people cling to them so much, because their beliefs are about them. You start to question well, who am I? Who am I, which is one of the deepest spiritual questions, by the way. Who am I? And which is one of the deepest spiritual questions, by the way, who am I? And you know what? Even in this moment, we’re discovering who we are, because if we really just let it all go and allow ourselves to be present, then we get to discover who we are as we are. By the way, all rivers flowing through the river of life and you can’t step in any river twice because it’s always moving and shifting and changing and so when we are really embracing this, letting go so we can flow, and living in that question mark and trusting the river of life, trusting the river of you, trusting the river of this existence, then we get to discover really amazing new things. And that’s when these manifestations happen and synchronicity, and you start to really see all of this, the symphony of life singing to you in a lot of ways. Going back to living in the question mark, what I say to my clients, because fortunately, I’ve had guides who’ve walked the path before me, and I think that that’s part of our intention of this podcast to talk about these things, so people in a sense sense have something to hear. In case you’re experiencing this.

Elizabeth Winkler: 18:29

If you’re feeling like there’s no ground beneath you, the mind or ego creates a sense of certainty. These beliefs create a sense of solid ground, although it’s not real. You have to keep thinking it and believing it in order for it to be real and then, just as davidji says, it changes. With the COVID example, sometimes someone has a particular political party and then they change to another one. That’s just how beliefs work they change. So when we live in the question mark and we live in this uncertain space, it feels like there’s no ground beneath you. And what I tell people is trust that. That actually means you’re in the power of presence. That actually means you’re there. Keep going, it’s okay, it’s okay. Trust that, trust that uncertain space, and you might feel like you’re going to fall down and you can’t. It’s like, okay, what’s going on here? But the more you do it, the more you trust it and it becomes more natural.

davidji: 19:28

Right, and this goes back to this concept that you and I have discussed so often and can’t do it enough.

davidji: 19:34

It’s the concept of impermanence. We think because something might have been true in a particular moment, now it’s true forever, and so we etch it inside of ourselves and then we walk through the world knowing this fact. You know, typically when two of our perceptions do not contradict each other, we consider that proof I see it and it’s there and I knew it in my head Proof. You know, we walk around with all these permanent proofs and, yes, you know, some of these are knowledge of experience and living and are helpful to us. But just because we are sensory beings that interpret all this stuff doesn’t mean that it’s always correct. If we can acknowledge, this concept of impermanence exists in every single moment, with every aspect of our lives. This podcast episode, unfortunately, will end up ending. There’s an arc to everything and there’s also some things that we know to be true just because we got used to them, and that’s why our heart is so powerfully broken when they change or shift or are. Quote taken from us.

Elizabeth Winkler: 20:49

So something I use a lot with couples around, this is okay. So you and I are sitting across from each other, across the table, and there’s a number six in front of me and I’m like davidji, it’s a six, and you’re like it’s a nine and I’m like it’s a six and you’re like it’s a nine and I’m like it’s a six, and we can continue to argue what we’re seeing right, and both of us, by the way, are correct. We’re both right from our perspective.

davidji: 21:18

No, I’m right, no, I’m right.

Elizabeth Winkler: 21:19

Right, so we can continue to divide and create this division and this abyss between us. Or I can say help me see your nine. I don’t see it. Help me see your nine. So if you’re feeling like you’re in a place where you’re arguing with your partner or someone in your life like that, I have a tool for you and that is this Help me understand. Help me understand when we are locked in our justification, our Jedi, we are Jedi-ing. Help me understand nine. Help me understand how you have a nine and so.

davidji: 21:57

So here I am, just so you know, I just wrote it down. I just wrote a nine. Elizabeth thinks it’s a six, but I wrote down a nine on a piece of paper and I put it between us right now. And so I’m staring at the nine, she is looking at the six right and so so it’s, it’s about, it’s about how can tell me, how can I help you see my nine, Because even if I turn it around to you to show you my nine, it becomes a six for me.

Elizabeth Winkler: 22:24

So what I tell people is help me understand, and this is about experience. So we’re talking about beliefs and you were talking about things changing and all that. So beliefs may not be real, okay, but your experience is real. Your experience is valid, Whatever experience you had. That’s your experience, that’s yours. My experience of six is true. Your experience of nine is your experience.

Elizabeth Winkler: 22:50

So I often encourage my clients to speak from their experience rather than their belief. My clients to speak from their experience rather than their belief. So this is my experience, like what I’m experiencing and you might be experiencing it in a different way you were talking about, like the crime scene. You know there’s 20 people. They’re all having a different experience of the same crime scene. So it’s. I don’t want to invalidate someone’s experience, you know. And the thing is, if we’re talking about beliefs, we will argue about beliefs like this is right, no, but no one can really argue with your experience because it’s your experience and your experience alone. And so the reason I say use the question, help me understand, is just to get you out of your Stop stop, stop, because this is classic E Winkler.

davidji: 23:39

This is classic Elizabeth Winkler stuff where she takes it so casually because she’s been flowing it for decades. But say that slowly because again, this comes down to the languaging. How can I get you to understand my experience? It starts with how I present the fact that I think I’m having a different experience from you, but I want to honor yours. So what’s the languaging?

Elizabeth Winkler: 24:07

Help me understand. So, in this example, I’m seeing a six, you’re seeing a nine. We can keep arguing or I can say, help me understand your nine, help me. Can say, help me understand your nine, like, help me understand that, help me understand your experience. And so I think the word experience is a really powerful one to use. Speak from that place instead of I believe I really personally try to avoid that. Oh, I like that.

davidji: 24:32

Yeah, like instead of I believe this?

Elizabeth Winkler: 24:35

my experience of this is yeah, and that’s true. And guess what? That’s embodied Right A belief is mind, and that’s. We’re working at the level of the mind, which is not where we want to be. My experience is embodied and real in this moment. And we can work with the energy, sorry.

davidji: 24:56

No, don’t apologize, I’m just, I’m so excited, I just want to. I can’t tell you no, that’s not your experience. I can. I can tell you, that’s a flawed belief.

Elizabeth Winkler: 25:06

Exactly that’s my point. People argue with beliefs, but they don’t argue with experience. So I do this a lot with you know, couples, but it’s a really powerful tool.

davidji: 25:17

We see this probably, and have seen it for the longest period of time, in the car companies that have created dual climate controls for the passenger and for the driver. This is like a really interesting thing. Two people get into the car. One of them, you know, is hot-blooded or hotter and they want to put on the air conditioning. And the other one is a shivering chihuahua. It’s hot-blooded or hotter and they want to put on the air conditioning. And the other one is a shivering chihuahua, you know we would call them a pitta and a vata occupying the same space Cold hands, cold feet, cold tush. And suddenly we realize, oh well, they’ll put on their seat heater and the heat flow to them. So whatever car company came up with the dual climate control not every car has this, obviously right now.

Elizabeth Winkler: 25:56

Maybe they had a lot of arguments with their partner.

davidji: 25:59

Right, right, whoever the engineer was working on that Probably came from a shadow experience. Right, whoever had like one of those conflicts and then came into work the next day and said I’m an engineer, I need to.

Elizabeth Winkler: 26:10

We must create something to solve this issue.

davidji: 26:21

Right right, I’ve been fighting with my partner for like the last five years every time we get in the car, and so that’s like a classic understanding, because that way, two people can come in, have the same exact temperature. It’s exactly I don’t know 68 degrees in the car. One person is cold from it, one person feels hot from it, and that cannot be debated, and of course, there could be an argument what do you mean? You’re cold, it’s boiling in here. What do you mean? You’re boiling, it’s freezing in here.

Elizabeth Winkler: 26:40

So it’s important that we make everyone’s experience is valid and we speak at that level, the level of experience we’re validating ourselves and each other, which hello anyone out there want to feel validated.

davidji: 26:53

You feel?

Elizabeth Winkler: 26:53

like you’re ever looking to be heard seen feel feel validated, do you feel like you’re ever looking to be heard, seen, feel? Everyone wants to be heard and seen and understood, and when we speak from this place of experience, we have a much better way of feeling that and experiencing that.

davidji: 27:09

I want to just keep this going a little bit longer, because there’s a phrase that’s used in our daily life and has been for I don’t know, maybe it’s a 20-year-old phrase my truth is, as opposed to the truth, probably only one truth. But there’s 8 billion people on the planet, 8 billion interpretations of that truth. So when someone says my truth is, sometimes I feel that it’s so authentic and so perfect for someone, really what they’re saying is my experience is yeah, but that can get weaponized, because when someone says my truth is for you to question or ask a deeper question of it or explore it even further, can be perceived as an attack on that person’s truth, not beliefs, because they could say I think it’s raining out and you could say, well, no, no, it’s actually not. But when it’s like, well, my truth is, well, that can’t be questioned.

Elizabeth Winkler: 28:08

Yeah, I think experience is a more powerful.

davidji: 28:10

That’s great If we could all shift that. I know it’s a little, it’s cooler, it’s more hipster to say my truth is, but the reality is there’s only one truth and there’s all of our flavorings of it and all of our translations of it and all of our interpretations of it, which comes down to our individual experiences of that. And I think that’s if we can walk through the world just a little bit kinder, just a little bit more compassionate, just a little bit listening to someone else’s experience and honor it and validate it, we won’t be pulling out our swords to battle over my truth. And your truth Experience is this Tell me more, fill me in, let me see if I can empathize and understand what in fact you are experiencing.

Elizabeth Winkler: 29:03

Right, and this is how we connect with your authority, your inner authority. Now we’re often giving our authority is your power, your inner power. You’re giving that away to other people by trying to get them to validate you, to see you, all these sorts of things. This practice, this way of speaking, helps you connect to your own inner authentic power, your authority. And there’s a quote I love there’s no authority higher than your own when you inhabit the wealth of your true being. And this is how we’re connecting to our true being, through our experience, speaking from our experience.

davidji: 29:44

Yeah, so deep so, so powerful. So what would be today’s takeaway? Living the light is it true?

Elizabeth Winkler: 29:56

Practicing that question, asking that question, often write it down somewhere. Seriously, you’re going to go through your day and continue to think thoughts that are not true. You’ll be stuck in a pattern of thinking of anxiety and I swear, if you just said, is that true? Nope, not true. That helps it just literally fall away very quickly. So is it true as a way to connect with your inner authority.

davidji: 30:28

I love that. Say it again.

Elizabeth Winkler: 30:30

Is it true? And then it just connects you to your body, to your present moment, experience, feel into it.

davidji: 30:39

So this is davidji with my co-host, Elizabeth Winkler, on. I think it’s called the Shadow and the Light. Not sure I would have to ask myself is it true? It is, but since we’re connected, since there’s so many of you around the world, we know it to be true. We are in over a thousand cities at this point. We are in over a hundred countries at this point, and that is just like one of the most beautiful, magnificent experiences. We never had any idea. Elizabeth and I were just talking about the Shadow in the Light podcast. Why do we do it? Because we wanted to have fun with you and we wanted to add value to this realm of conversation, and so, hopefully, you’re still finding value in each episode. Remember to share with your friends on wherever you listen to podcasts, whether that’s Spotify or Apple Podcasts or YouTube. In the meantime, just keep asking yourself is it true? I?

Music: 31:39

start. The light is here to remove all my fears and to bring new sight. The light is a cloud that will go to the deep to take me to your eyes. The shadow and the light. There’s no fog and fog bottom. You hold it as you’re on the mend, but don’t rush past this moment. The darkness can become a friend. Love will come by your side and you’ll shine brighter than a million suns A million suns. You went through hell, but now you’re in the light. It is here to remove all your fears and to bring new sight. The light, it is love that will go to the deep To take you to new heights. The shadow and the light has come because it loves us. The light has come to set us free. The shadow comes because it loves us. The shadow comes to set us free. The light Is here to remove all our fears and to bring new life. The light Is the light that will go to the deep To take us to new heights. The shadow and the light.